Tjaša Ferme: Welcome to Theatre Tech Talks: AI, Science, and Biomedia in theatre, a podcast produced by HowlRound Theatre Commons, a free and open platform for theatremakers worldwide.
Tonight with us is Emma Bexell, who’s the co-artistic director of Bombina Bombast, which is an award-winning efficiency arts firm through which efficiency artwork and know-how are deeply intertwined, with a base in Malmö, Sweden. The corporate has, over the course of a decade, remodeled from a basement, to working an organization with a crew of collaborators from their very own studio that additionally homes a black field, counting over sixty unique works for stage and display. That is so fascinating and wonderful, and I might simply love to listen to extra about your story of how did you determine that you’ll work completely in new media and utilizing know-how and form of stepping away for lots of this half from reside viewers. How did this occur? The place did this come from?
Emma Bexell: Completely, and thanks for having me right here. It is wonderful to speak to you now.
Tjaša: Yeah, it is so humorous, as a result of we really met at APAP and we related as a result of we’re like, oh, we’re in an identical class of know-how performances.
Emma: Precisely. So yeah, I imply, we began out as theatre folks making an attempt to make theatre performances. We had been in our early twenties and had been a bit bored with working in small basements or no matter we may get our arms on, and we might do performs for small audiences with no cash in any respect. And on the time in Stockholm, there was a variety of unbiased theatre teams working very separate from one another, and there was a variety of competitors, and we had this naive concept that we should always all simply get collectively and do one thing tremendous bombastic as an announcement and to showcase what all of us may do on an even bigger stage. So we fashioned the corporate, me and there have been 4 others on this group of people that had been heading the venture, and we had this concept to collect a bunch of those unbiased theatre teams and put up a present, mainly.
And we determined to do a musical adaptation of Voltaire’s Candide, the political satire. And so we labored in direction of that. And that was mainly… it was in some ways classical theatre efficiency with music and narrating, a really Brechtian type kind of, however for what we do now, a really classical piece of theatre. And we managed collectively like fifty, sixty folks to make this occur. And we had a bunch of golf equipment and occasions heading as much as this with a purpose to fund it. So we constructed a group round this concept of Bombina Bombast as a little bit of an activist group that was doing one thing for the younger tradition scene. And so this complete endeavor was funded by promoting beer at no matter venue we may get our arms on. And we created the group for this venture alone. However then after, as a result of we acquired a variety of press and lots of people joined in making this occur, I bear in mind this assembly we had after having completed the reveals, there have been fifty folks within the room and we had been saying, “Now we have a momentum. Let’s hold working this group and make one thing nice.”
After which as soon as it was time to write down purposes and search for cash, it was me and Stefan left. So we continued for some time in Stockholm, however then principally as a result of it’s totally onerous to search out someplace to reside in that metropolis, it is costly, we virtually on a whim moved right down to Malmö. We will really discover someplace to reside there that is reasonably priced. So we moved down and that is once we realized we had the possibility to, from the start, construct one thing new. So we used Bombina Bombast because the automobile for the thought to what will we wish to do? We have accomplished this theatre factor, however we’re each board avid gamers and are available from taking part in board video games and digital video games in our spare time.
And I imply, we had been younger and naïve nonetheless, however pondering we are able to make theatre, we all know learn how to make theatre, however how do you make theatre that engages an viewers in the identical method as we really feel like this gaming can do with an viewers or a participant? And with that concept, how will we mix these dramaturgies and people instruments to take that right into a theatre house? And that is what we had as a query once we moved right down to Malmö, and we determined to, let’s try to construct one thing from that concept. And in Sweden, we have now all of this. You may really apply and get a variety of funding from the federal government and from the town and from the area. And that is how we began, getting small quantities of funding and making an attempt out these tasks the place we might work a variety of site-specific work.
We did video and audio walks within the metropolis, and we went to New York and noticed Sleep No Extra. Wow, okay. Different persons are interested by these sorts of various constructions, and there is really one thing right here that additionally displays on how we as people relate to different folks in society right this moment. It is a gamified society, in order that’s why it feels necessary to look into sport constructions additionally in artwork to mirror on that construction in a really political method. And that is one thing that we have been constructing on since. Yeah, so I imply we have traveled by means of codecs and thru concepts, however I feel the refrain has at all times been like, how will we mirror on the company we have now as people right this moment in our artwork?
Tjaša: I like that. What particularly speaks to me is while you mentioned that we’re a gamified society. What all do you imply by that?
That is someplace the place I can protest or someplace I can share necessary info, however it nonetheless turns into a part of this bubble the place what I say results in what like-minded folks wish to see… I feel I protested, however did I actually?
Emma: I imply, social media is a really clear instance of that. We settle for the format, just like the Fb feed the place you possibly can simply scroll without end and ever. There’s at all times one thing new, and in case you work together, it will get higher and you may give out factors, give out; I like this factor you are doing, or I get this dopamine kick out of posting one thing and getting suggestions. And in case you work together with it the way in which you are purported to do, you get a lot again that feels actually good and makes you wish to do extra. That creates this, I imply, I might say false sense of company. You suppose you are doing one thing that truly issues, however you are mainly caught on this very restricted format that another person is controlling for you and making you make decisions and making you watch all of those commercials with a purpose to simply proceed getting that kick.
And I feel I am additionally a client of that, and I additionally get caught within the feed, however I feel that critically and pondering, what does this actually do and why do we predict… I certain do. I act like this can be a public house. That is someplace the place I can protest or someplace I can share necessary info, however it nonetheless turns into a part of this bubble the place what I say results in what like-minded folks wish to see. It’s one thing about the entire system that’s like… I feel I protested, however did I actually? Did I?
Tjaša: Since you nonetheless use the identical instruments.
Emma: Yeah.
Tjaša: I do know that every so often, I delete my apps after which I spend a day or a few days with out the app, after which I must go on as a result of I must verify this or that did any person message me? And there is additionally a way of accountability as if I’ve a accountability to reply. And I’ve a accountability to share and to contribute. So okay, I am going again on. After which instantly my physique is aware of that this isn’t good for me, and for some time I’ve this resistance. However there may be this sense, like I mentioned, of accountability and the necessity for contribution. However I feel that finally the physique is aware of that it is a lure, that it is a trick. And it is identical to, how can we disengage? How will you be a public persona or do one thing that is public going through, and also you’re in search of energetic audiences and individuals? How will you then not interact? It looks like it is inconceivable. It is now so ingrained within the constructions of how we perform, that it is inconceivable to not be there and to not be part of it.
Emma: Precisely. And I feel one factor is simply opting out utterly, however that turns into virtually inconceivable. And I feel that is very fascinating to take a look at the way it’s additionally fascinating to fail to choose out.
Tjaša: Sure, sure, sure, precisely.
It feels pressing to fulfill in individual, however it additionally feels pressing to mirror on why we do not.
Emma: However I feel that reside artwork and theatre, what we all know is folks assembly reside in an area, learn how to simply get folks to the theatre. That turns into an important factor. And I feel that dynamic between us being actual folks collectively, reside, sharing a narrative in relation to how we relate to one another on an on a regular basis foundation on totally different messenger channel, WhatsApp, no matter you employ, it is fascinating. And it feels pressing to fulfill in individual, however it additionally feels pressing to mirror on why we do not.
Tjaša: It additionally feels very primal and it feels… there’s one thing within the human psyche. We want a selected form of connections. And weaving a narrative along with folks adjustments the story. The observer adjustments the noticed. And I really feel like these huge feelings which are typically solely skilled or stronger when skilled collectively, are perhaps the driving force why folks assembly by the hearth and telling tales or folks coming to the theatre and being half and witnessing and reliving a selected story has been such a giant a part of our historical past and why theatre nonetheless persists.
The factor that I first noticed out of your work, and that form of pulled me, and I am unable to cease interested by it, is precisely about this. I noticed It is Coldand There’s No Music, the place you’ve two gamers and one in all them has a movement seize swimsuit and is projected for everyone to see in a selected atmosphere. And the opposite one is a very analog and there’s no hint of them. Like they do not exist. And it is like bothering me. I imply, it is such a great story and it is so visceral. Are you able to converse a bit bit extra about that? What did this come from?
Emma: Yeah, yeah. This was from the thought… Yeah, we would been taking part in round with a movement seize swimsuit and reside projecting it in order that we had a dancer on stage, and you then would see on a display this dancer as an avatar doing the identical motion concurrently. And this grew to become one sort of relationship the place you’d see… and it is a form of crappy swimsuit as effectively. This isn’t the excessive finish movement seize. It has this glitchy… I imply, I develop bored with this glitch factor, after which I am pulled again into simply pondering the glitch is so fascinating. So one thing occurs when it does not actually work. However anyway, this relationship between the dancer and the avatar, after which once we launched one other bodily dancer within the house, it grew to become much more, it appeared like two folks making an attempt to clarify to this digital being learn how to be a human.
This was this example we constructed the entire piece on. And it is extra of a choreographic piece, and it does not actually have a narrative, however it’s about these two bodily actual human beings making an attempt to make sense of this digital being tracing them or tracing one in all them. So it’s variations on this theme of what’s my physique and the way do I meet you bodily and what’s distance and proximity and explaining to the digital what it’s prefer to be human, the impossibility of that. And it is referred to as, And There’s No Music, and it is a line from one in all my favourite songs. It is a Tom Waits tune: Maintain On. It is a line from that. And the total… it goes: “it is so onerous to bounce that method when it is chilly and there is no music.” So we had been like, however we hold dancing. As people, we hold doing that even when it is chilly and there is no music. So yeah, that is the sensation of the piece is that this, we’re so alone and it is so inconceivable to be human, however but we’re.
Tjaša: Yeah.
Emma: That is the piece.
Tjaša: There’s one thing about watching the motion of reside people in entrance of you after which additionally watching a display illustration. And I do not know why, typically I default to the display after which clearly inevitably I come again to people after which I completely tune out the opposite factor. However simply from evolutionary standpoint and perhaps neuroscientific standpoint, I am about what’s it that typically I simply choose in for the display and that the display has such a big pull.
Emma: It is so current. We work lots with projection and onstage, and it is one thing you need to relate to on a regular basis as a result of folks, they’re pulled in direction of the display. There’s most likely some psychological, organic clarification for that, however it’s—
Tjaša: Should be.
Emma: It is working very onerous to get your consideration. It is so current in a method that it feels extra current than a bodily physique on stage. And that is one thing that you need to use. It might probably actually destroy one thing, however it can be a possible. After which it is referred to as, And There’s No Music. We labored with it as a possible, saying, you retain coming again to watching the display, however we’re really working actually onerous down right here.
Tjaša: Sure. Sure.
Emma: As two bodily beings, simply displaying that that is what’s taking place and make enjoyable of it, but additionally present the complexity of that.
Tjaša: Yeah. Let’s speak about Slumberland for a second. That is a hybrid of documentary audio theatre, sport design, and immersive set up. The piece is carried out remotely from wherever on this planet and livestreamed to wherever using movement seize know-how on one finish and Oculus VR headsets on the opposite. Inform us extra about this. Additionally, I simply love the story of the way you even acquired your arms on this, the way you thematically approached this piece, which was such as you learn a newspaper article a few social employee who was actually working with criminals, you say in your textual content, excluded from society gang members who could not sleep, who had been going through a variety of insomnia. So I wish to know all about it. After which additionally, how do you tour? Do you ship your VR headpiece or how does this work?
Emma: Yeah, I will attempt to inform you all about it. However the thought, as you mentioned, was… one factor got here from simply the potential of really having viewers in a digital house collectively collectively. And we would been working with this house that was like an evening starry sky, and we had been interested by learn how to even have this as a spot the place we may get some relaxation and sleep. In order that was one a part of the concept got here along with this text I examine this social employee who labored with… we have now a variety of… Sweden struggles with gang violence, and it is just like the social employee was working in a segregated space in Stockholm, I feel. And he had an in depth relationship with a variety of youngsters who had been in gangs, they usually wrote to him in the midst of the night time, “why cannot I sleep?” They usually had been having all of those anxieties and feeling paranoid, and, “I will die tomorrow, or somebody’s going to shoot my mom as a result of I am in a gang, however it’s the one factor I do know.”
They usually could not sleep. I imply, that is the hardcore model of it. They had been simply up and texting the social employee on Instagram. However I acquired into simply studying about how widespread it’s with insomnia among the many youth right this moment in Sweden and likewise all all over the world, and never simply insomnia. There’s the criminals with insomnia, however there’s additionally only a common fourteen-year-old who struggles going to sleep due to anxiousness, stress, and that screens have such a giant half on this relationship with going to mattress and failing to sleep since you’re in your cellphone. But additionally that is the place the protection is. That is the place you possibly can discuss to your pals about your anxiousness. So it is like this double factor the place you are unable to place your cellphone down as a result of that is the place you discover consolation, however it’s worthwhile to put it down with a purpose to sleep.
So that you’re on this liminal house of… I imply, we all know that screens really make us sleep much less. So we’re a sleep-deprived society as a result of all of us spend, I do not know… I’ve learn research about we sleep an hour or two hours lower than a few a long time in the past. And it is principally due to screens. And I imply, this has occurred simply once we launched electrical lights in societies. We began sleeping much less as a result of we really may very well be up. So I imply, it’s not a brand new factor in that sense, however it’s one thing about additionally in an consideration financial system we reside in, that they’re really corporations who need us to by no means put our telephones down and at all times be consuming and at all times be there to reply any message immediately. And if we sleep, I imply, we’re a nasty client. We labored on this, in Slumberland with a double factor of the digital house could be a place of relaxation and sleep.
However I additionally interviewed principally late teenagers, interviewed them about their sleeping habits and, “What retains you up, what methods do you’ve to fall asleep?” And each single one had tales about they stayed up as a result of they had been avid gamers and had mates throughout the Atlantic. In order that they had been like, “Yeah, I’ve to remain up in the midst of the night time as a result of that is when my mates are awake to play video games.” And I did not have these form of mates once I was in my teenagers, so it is a new world to me. They usually had been additionally speaking about like, “Oh, my mom at all times tells me to place the cellphone down, put the cellphone down, fall asleep, however I am unable to. After which I am on my cellphone for 2 hours simply scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling” and the display retains you from sleeping. After which Slumberland, the place you really as an viewers put a display in entrance of your face, just like the VR headset, you strap a display in entrance of your face.
What’s that unusual factor? However how will we make that into a spot for relaxation and reflection? So we constructed a efficiency on this Unity platform, the place we are able to have large viewers of individuals. Proper now, it is designed for twenty folks at a time, and we have now a performer livestreamed from a movement seize swimsuit that guides the viewers by means of a ritual the place you additionally get to listen to a few of these tales from the youth that we interviewed. And there is additionally a component the place you get to discover a discipline of beds. We additionally went into a few of these youngsters’ houses and scanned their bedrooms. You get to enter into their bedrooms and stand by their mattress and listen to their story. So you possibly can discover totally different tales by listening. We put them within stars, so that you decide up a star after which you possibly can maintain it to your ear and take heed to an interview.
And we are able to additionally add interviews once we tour, if we keep someplace for an extended time. We additionally attempt to make interviews wherever we go and add them to the piece. So it grows because it excursions. However yeah, we do not actually have… we’re looking for the one touring mannequin for it. However proper now it is nonetheless like every part’s in improvement as a result of venues are kind of used to dealing with VR headsets. And a few are like, “Yeah, we have now twenty, so we are able to present it.” And a few are like, “We don’t know learn how to even flip a headset on.” So then we come there with our headsets and we facilitate, and we even have totally different variations. Like now in April/Could, we’ll be at Oregon State College displaying it, and there we have now the likelihood to really make an entire set up. So it is extra of: you enter a black field that is an area that is regarding the digital house, and the onboarding is much more fleshed out, however we even have extra of a gallery model that we are able to do extra of a fast setup and present it.
However the factor we are able to do is that we have now a technician and performer in Sweden, however we are able to carry out within the US with out even touring. And anybody can be a part of if they’ve their very own VR headsets. However it’s additionally an exploration into the infrastructure of touring twenty VR headsets and distant performers. How will we really try this? The potential is that we do not have to go in any respect, however often we have now to have somebody there to facilitate, or we have now to have somebody to arrange the set up. And likewise venues are concerned about really having the performer on location, so you possibly can see the way it works as a result of it is nonetheless fascinating to interact with the behind the scenes.
Tjaša: You are additionally creating a brand new iteration of The AI Get together, which is a sequence of performances centered across the thought of a political social gathering led by a man-made intelligence. Inform me all about that.
Emma: Yeah, that is a venture that began method earlier than ChatGPT, the place we collaborated with Triage Reside Artwork, that is Melbourne and Berlin-based firm and the Middle for All the pieces from Helsinki. And we had the thought to contain a man-made intelligence as a creative co-creator in a venture. So we tried to get our arms on an AI to make use of as a creative collaborator. Already then we had the thought to what if this may very well be a creative collaborator? What if it may very well be a political collaborator? What if it may very well be a political chief? And anybody who’s learn Isaac Asimov has this picture of, on the finish of I, Robotic, there’s this all-knowing AI who makes all of the political selections on this planet primarily based on dividing sources equally and all of that.
So there was this utopian thought of what if we have now this tremendous intelligence, then we really would by no means have to carry an election as a result of it will know what we might vote for and it will make the choice primarily based on a democratic end result, or nonetheless we might wish to construction it. It may make all of these selections. And we would not must have people like us. We have failed at politics. We do not have a great observe document of political leaders, so perhaps that is the very best resolution. However then we had been so concerned about having an actual synthetic intelligence. And again then, once we tried, we talked to researchers and programmers they usually had been like, “However there’s nothing clever. It is a chatbot. Even probably the most superior ones, they’re superior as a result of they’re fed a variety of info, however they don’t seem to be very superior.”
And it is about who packages it, what info do you feed it. And it is at all times going to be biased, and it isn’t going to be the proper political chief. You are going to get at most somebody who can reply a sophisticated math downside. So we had really this AI researcher who was like, “It is far more fascinating to me in case you faux it and put a faux AI on stage and inform everybody that it is tremendous good and see what occurs then.” And we had been like, however we would like the actual factor. And he was like, “However I need the fiction. It is far more fascinating.” So the totally different corporations concerned within the venture made totally different iterations of this concept of getting a political chief that was an AI. And for us, it is resulted in a sequence of performances the place, principally for youngsters, concerning the thought a few political social gathering run by an AI.
However we had a performer who would carry out because the AI, and the youngsters would interface with it in numerous methods as a voice or as an avatar. And we created these conditions that they may ask it questions or feed it knowledge, and we may like… what would you need a political chief to be? And the AI may reply to that.
Tjaša: And was this scripted for the actor portraying AI, or how was this generated?
Emma: It was within the type of a theatre efficiency, however with totally different interactive parts. It could begin out as a presentation from individuals who mentioned they had been from the AI social gathering, and you’d discuss to this AI, after which the AI would evolve and you’d divide into teams and work together with it in numerous scenes, extra of an immersive theatre efficiency. And you then would come collectively ultimately, after which the AI could be within the type of an avatar, a bit like in It is Chilly and There’s No Music.
Tjaša: Your visuals are actually, actually gorgeous. I’m curious the way you as theatremakers grew into, I do not know, perhaps video designers, sport designers, sport engine designers. You mentioned that your story is from basement to a studio with the theatre. So how many individuals do you’ve working with you? What are the totally different profiles of individuals working with you? What does this crew actually seem like by way of totally different expertise that you’ve got and totally different backgrounds that you’ve got?
Emma: That is very fascinating. I imply, at first, me and Stefan had been studying the entire issues ourselves, and that grew to become a little bit of an necessary method of working as effectively, as a result of we’re interested by the know-how and what it does in society by means of and with the know-how. So realizing the way it works has at all times been necessary. So at first, we constructed our personal VR digital camera utilizing GoPros and rubber bands and a few tape. After which we might spend two weeks stitching collectively the footage as a result of nobody may inform us learn how to do it. And it is like this DIY factor. However then as we grew and acquired a bit extra funding, we had the power to get extra specialised folks coming in. However nonetheless, I feel we have at all times had this DIY angle in direction of know-how and that we have now to know the way it works.
However then when the pandemic got here, everybody else was sitting at house rolling their thumbs, making an attempt to determine what to do. And we had extra work than ever, as a result of what we would at all times been arguing for, we have to have a look at know-how and be taught the way it works, all of the sudden grew to become the competency everybody was in search of. So we had been consulting, we had been livestreaming performances for folks. We knew cameras, we knew reside video manufacturing, and we had been throughout Sweden serving to folks arrange studios and going digital or remodeling a efficiency into one thing that may very well be accomplished on Zoom or… yeah, we by no means acquired any relaxation through the pandemic. And likewise our crew grew in that course of video manufacturing and interplay design.
After which now we’re in a second the place we’re really down-scaling. We had been at most, I feel 9 or ten folks within the workplace, and that is producers and manufacturing assistants, but additionally a lightweight designer, video designer, like a technical supervisor. However often folks with a really broad skillset as a result of we do a variety of various things and we do our personal creative work, after which we do consulting, and we additionally go into establishments and do video design for one more director or reside video enhancing… we attempt to have a steadiness between doing gigs for others and doing our personal creative work.
Tjaša: Obtained it. And so this whole crew, these ten folks. These persons are on a payroll. They don’t seem to be simply coming out and in relying on the work, however they’re on the payroll.
Emma: Sure. Not proper now. We do not have the cash to maintain that many individuals. However at a second through the pandemic, sure, we had been ten folks on a payroll.
Tjaša: Wow, that is so spectacular. And okay, I am beginning to perceive the profile as a result of once I noticed sixty performances or sixty items of paintings mainly in ten years, that is lots. That is a extremely large output. And I used to be curious if these are all of your native tasks or if these are together with the tasks that you simply’re working for different folks. And I am understanding that that is together with what you had been commissioned to do otherwise you helped with and produced for others.
Emma: Yeah. However I imply, in these sixty will not be included the gigs the place we’re not artistically concerned. Now we have been very productive and likewise do a variety of fast… for instance, this video stroll idea the place we come to a venue, we get a fee to do a video stroll that is like, we do analysis on the house and the place and interview folks, after which we do a information. And that may be… it is a large manufacturing, however it’s not like a six-month manufacturing. And we did a showcase of that at APAP, the place I did a video stroll from the lobby, from the doorway and up by means of the convention after which again once more.
And that was about… once I did simply the essential analysis concerning the Hilton Midtown, I noticed that that was really the place the engineer from Motorola made the primary cellular telephone name outdoors of the doorway of the Hilton Midtown. And I used to be like, this can be a historic website. That they had this concept to: perhaps we are able to construct these gadgets, a cellphone that you could carry with you that is a private system. And that was revolutionary on the time. So I used to be simply intrigued by this being a historic website.
Tjaša: Yeah. I am so curious to listen to your story as a result of it does really feel that dwelling and creating in Sweden is way totally different than dwelling and creating within the US. You even have two younger youngsters, and it looks like unimaginable that you simply’re creating sixty items in ten years, consulting, working your individual firm, making your paintings, and have two youngsters. How is that this doable? How do you handle the time? What’s your little secret sauce?
Emma: Nicely, I would not say it is easy, however I imply, we do have free childcare, and may really go to work, each of us, and have our children in an incredible college the place they care for them and feed them good meals and train them issues. So yeah, the youngsters are 5 and two, they usually’ve been additionally… I feel they have been alongside for the journey. They know the theatre. They know that we have now a life that is not a 9 to 5. Yeah, it is a life-style. It is like we have chosen to make artwork, but additionally to maintain the artwork near our lives. So it is a battle. It’s totally onerous. It takes a variety of time, however the payback is that kind of, you get to make artwork and present your youngsters that you could really work with one thing you are enthusiastic about, and that is a present.
Tjaša: That is lovely. That is lovely. I find it irresistible a lot. And perhaps for the final query, how do you go about discovering the locations to tour?
Emma: We attempt to be on the market. Going to APAP isn’t one thing a daily theare firm from Sweden does. That is… not lots of people simply enterprise out into the US market. It is a variety of work with visas, for instance. However we go there and see, is that this one thing for us? Can we meet friends? Is anybody ? And I feel additionally being a cross-disciplinary firm, we do theatre, however we do what may very well be categorized as new media or movie or efficiency or video games while you’re this in-between…
Tjaša: Chameleon.
Emma: Yeah. Chameleon, completely.
Tjaša: Or an octopus, now that we all know how good they’re.
Emma: Yeah, I feel it is extra like an octopus. I feel it feels extra like an octopus since you go someplace the place you do not know every part, so you need to ask questions on how does it work right here? However you additionally notice the place you come from, as a result of it isn’t taken without any consideration. You notice what you’re taking without any consideration. In a theatre, I might take it without any consideration that, effectively, there is a house for a performer to vary into their stage garments. And you then go to a movie pageant and that is not one thing you’ve. You do not have a dressing room as a result of they present movies. So you need to do all of those negotiations. And I like that. That is when you possibly can problem your self, but additionally deliver one thing new to an viewers that perhaps did not count on it.
Tjaša: I find it irresistible. Yeah. It is like this contemporary, open thoughts and an ever studying perspective. Proper?
Emma: Yeah. Yeah.
Tjaša: Cool. Thanks. This was wonderful. This was pleasant.
Emma: Thanks.
Tjaša: And that is the tip of the primary season.
Emma: Oh my God. Congratulations. And thanks for doing this.
Tjaša: Thanks. Thanks for doing it with me.
Emma: I have been listening to it.
Tjaša: Yay. Superb.
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